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Well the stats point to a clear, albeit narrow, win for Pacquiao. I don't really know.

Pacman went from powerboxing to scorecard-winning in a matter of 2 matches, who isn't disappointed?

At least JMM brought his gameface.

He's probably losing his fire.

Watched the whole fight.

The thing for me was, Pacquiao didn't feel like he was being aggressive enough because he was being cautious of Marquez' counters.
Marquez' arm length also did its job, chipping off AP from a distance. Basically, counter punches + good range reduced Pacquiao's effectiveness and tenacity since he had to be cautious of those counters that could become lucky punches that could knock anybody down including him. If Pacquiao only became more aggressive and brought the fight to Marquez, his victory could've been more acceptable.

(11-14-2011, 02:36 PM)Serene Wrote: [ -> ]Watched the whole fight.

Basically, counter punches + good range reduced Pacquiao's effectiveness and tenacity since he had to be cautious of those counters that could become lucky punches that could knock anybody down including him. If Pacquiao only became more aggressive and brought the fight to Marquez, his victory could've been more acceptable.

Creds to Marquez for a (relatively) well-played match though. I saw him land a couple of clean shots to Manny's jaw and ribs. I also saw a huge right counter that landed smack in Manny's face at one point. That looked like it hurt.

A shame Pac-man retaliated too quickly for Marquez to follow up with additional combos.

(11-14-2011, 07:49 PM)Twin-Skies Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-14-2011, 02:36 PM)Serene Wrote: [ -> ]Watched the whole fight.

Basically, counter punches + good range reduced Pacquiao's effectiveness and tenacity since he had to be cautious of those counters that could become lucky punches that could knock anybody down including him. If Pacquiao only became more aggressive and brought the fight to Marquez, his victory could've been more acceptable.

Creds to Marquez for a (relatively) well-played match though. I saw him land a couple of clean shots to Manny's jaw and ribs. I also saw a huge right counter that landed smack in Manny's face at one point. That looked like it hurt.

A shame Pac-man retaliated too quickly for Marquez to follow up with additional combos.

Those and we heard some really crispy sounding hits from Marquez. No offense to Pacquiao but [Hajime no Ippo aside] it felt like Marquez was the champ being challenged.

Should've treated the fight like he's going against Clottey.

Two of the best post fight articles I've read so far; both short and full of insight.

For Pacquiao, a Victory Comes at a Painful Cost

Quote:An hour had passed since the fight ended, since the boos that cascaded throughout the arena drowned out Pacquiao’s in-ring interview. He went upstairs, walking gingerly, to the postfight news conference. For the first time in a long time, he felt it necessary to defend himself.

“It’s very clear that I won the fight,” he said.

Pacquiao took all of two questions, then retired down the street to his suite at Mandalay Bay after another classic fight between two men that raised more questions than it answered.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/sports....html?_r=1

Why Manny Pacquiao Can't Beat JMM

Quote:Turning away from Manny's dominant hand is not only the key to avoiding it, but it can also open him up for quick counters and true straight right hands that land up the middle. One of the keys to being a complete fighter is standing on an angle that keeps the opponent from being able to land his best punch, while you are in position to get off first, or counter a mistake. That's the genius in what Marquez does.

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/11/14/25...el-marquez

This has been making the rounds on Facebook recently.

You'd have to be awfully naive to be surprised by that.

(11-16-2011, 12:13 PM)NiX Wrote: [ -> ]You'd have to be awfully naive to be surprised by that.

My thoughts exactly. Some of the comments are really hilarious.

isnt it common because of the left handed stance of pacquiao?

Yes it is. But I'm pretty sure it's deliberate in this case, as shown above. Totally practiced.

as long as it wins fights, its fine by me

I've no problem with it either. If it gets by the ref then he's doing it right.

It happens a lot when two fighters with opposite stances go up against each other. It's not exactly "honorable", but it's in that gray area of sports, much like hidden elbows to the gut in basketball.

I'd like to share this note written by my friend over at Facebook. I thought it was a very good and fair read.

Quote:Manny Pacquiao may have left as the champion, but Juan Manuel Marquez walked out a WINNER
by Jon-t Vergara on Monday, November 14, 2011 at 1:40am

For the past 3 years, Manny Pacquiao's fight have always ended in virtually the same way. He exits the ring, similing and basking in the adulation and respect of the crowd. Last night, however, in a scene straight out of the sixth installment of the Rocky film series, one fighter from the latest boxing mega-fight walked out of the arena to the adulation and support of the crowd, despite the results of the scorecards. That was not Manny Pacquiao, it was his opponent, Juan Manuel Marquez. And for once, Manny Pacquiao was on the receiving end of boos.

The third bout in the Manny Pacquiao and Juan Manuel Marquez trilogy will undoubtedly be the most talked about and remembered of all their fights. It was a great fight from the 4th round onwards and it was exciting and enthralling till the final bell. Unfortunately, fight fans will not remember the action in the ring as much as they will debate the now infamous results that the judges rendered ; 114-114, 115-113, 116-112 in favor of Pacquiao.

The fight was close, and compubox stats, closely contested rounds, and outright partisanship can justify the results, but the fact remains, the decision remains debateable. Usually after that final bell, fighters raise their arms in triumph, such as racers crossing the finish line, knowing that they have done all they could to win the fight. In this fight, one fighter raised his arm in triumph and smiled to the crowd, while another sulked his head and plodded to his corner. You would have never guessed who was who based on the scorecards last night.

Honestly, I thought Marquez won the fight. He controlled the pace of the fight. He found “holes” to Pacquiao’s “defense”, which really is, his offense. Pacquiao looked tentative in the bout, choosing not to pursue with combinations and opting to chase, plant, and unleash combinations, not attacking while Marquez was backing up. This played perfectly into the gameplan of Marquez, as he attacked openings to Pacquiao’s body, landed lead rights and counter rights, and found a home for uppercuts right through the “peek-a-boo” defense which Pacquiao often times employs. Marquez undoudtebly is the perfect problematic matchup for Pacquiao. In local terms, "contra pelo". For some reason, he has Pacquiao's number.

I think the fight was a case of overthinking and adjustment. Pacquiao chose not to press the action as he usually does, partly because of Marquez’s reputation as an excellent counterpuncher. Marquez meanwhile, seemed to pick up on that and pressed the action himself, effectively negating Pacquiao’s early gameplan. It wasn’t until deep in the fight when Pacquiao threw caution to the wind and attacked constantly, enabling him to pick up some rounds after being overwhelemed in the middle rounds. This lead to short exchanges of combinations, with neither man really being in danger of getting knocked out. The exchange of the action was beautiful, with some punches landing within mere split seconds of the other. A straight right landed by Marquez would be followed by a right hook by Pacquiao immediately after.

Focus not on the result but on the journey. It’s unfortunate that the results of this fight take away from the testament of Marquez’s boxing ability. Certainly, a win would have done wonders for him, but the biggest problem of the result, is that is over shadowed the boxing clinic that Marquez put on. And this is a 38 year old man we are talking about weighing in at 5 punds below the legal weight class limit. He executed a perfect gameplan and executed it to near perfection, save for a favorable result.

As I said earlier, Pacquiao looked tentative and nowehere near the offensive dynamo he has been for the past so many years. He wasn't able to knock down a 38 year old man, and seemed to be fighting on the fly, that is, without a certain gameplan. If this version of Pacquiao shows up against better opposition, namely Floy Mayweather Jr., it may not be good for the Pacman.

Pacquiao didn't help himself either when, during his post fight interview in the ring he stated "I decisively won this fight" or something to that extent. I'm sure he meant no malice in his words, and he was proabaly following a script or outline liek he usually does, but in respect of the minds of the fight fans watching, a statement like that does nothing but show foolish pride. Take for example BJ Penn during his draw with Jon Fitch. He admitted outright that he thought he lost the fight. Sometimes a bit of honesty can be good for a fighter's image, especially one like Pacquiao, who has been squeaky clean thus far.

What irks me the most about this fight would be the ludicrous excuses that “Pactards” will be bring up to justify Pacquiao’s victory. They speak of the “championship advantage” or “having to beat the champion convincingly”. Hogwash. Balderdash. That’s merely a convenient excuse that is thrown out when champions walk away from close fights. In the Floyd Mayweather versus Oscar Dela Hoya fight for Dela Hoya’s Junior Middleweight championship, Mayweather won via split decision. Where was this championship advantage? When Jermain Taylor bested Bernard Hopkins for throne as the undisputed middleweight championship of the world in a split decision, where was this championship advantage? What’s even more striking is the fact that in both these fights, all of the fighters involved looked and acted like they were expecting a victory. I cannot say the same for the fight last night. Only one person won looked like he was expecting a victory.

Another excuse brought up are compubox stats. Since when are compubox stats even respected? Sure they tell punches landed and thrown but they are nothing more than cosmetics for TV broadcasts. Take for example the Machida-Rua I title bout in the UFC. The compustrike (similar to compubox) stats from that fight clearly shows that Rua outlanded Machida in strikes, yet Machida won the bout via decision.

The worst reason I've heard, whether in jest or in all seriousness, would be that Pacquiao deliberately put on a poor performance, doing just enough to win, in order to lure Floyd Mayweather into a superfight next May. This reason is so ridiculous, I won't even waste any more words on it.

These reasons thrown out irk me because they are needless excuses. If you think Pacquiao won, that’s your opinion, stick with it. Stand up and say, “Manny beat Marquez. He outboxed him last night”. No need to grasp at straws with these ridiculous justifications, which many are using after the fact, meaning these reasons are being sued only after the favorable decision for Pacquiao. In the same way I believe that Marquez won the fight, some people will believe that Pacquiao won the fight and deserved that decision. Stand up to it and own your opinion. There is no need to explain anything to anybody.

Granted, the fight was close and the decision could have gone either way. Personally, I didn’t agree with the decisions, especially after hearing the score of 116-112. However, it’s boxing and the scoring of such bouts leads to decisions like these sometimes. That’s part of the beauty, and oftentimes, to the eyes of most casual observers, part of the problem of boxing.

You know the decision of the fight is out of sorts when you would have felt bad if Marquez won and Pacquiao lost, but still feel “empty” and not as elated as usual when Pacquiao won. Some may say Pacquiao won, while other may say Marquez won. Officially, Manny Pacquiao won on the judges score cards. But he did not beat Juan Manuel Marquez. From the moment that final bell rang, right up to this very moment, he knows, deep in his heart, he walked away from that ring, a winner.


Juan Manuel Marquez celebrates thinking he beat WBO Welterweight Champion Manny Pacquiao at the end their title fight at the MGM Grand Garden Arena Saturday November 12, 2011 in Las Vegas, Nevada. Pacquiao defended his WBO welterweight title against Marquez with a majority 12 round decision. AFP Photo / John Gurzinski (Photo credit should read JOHN GURZINSKI/AFP/Getty Images) ©