LR: Game Frustrations

[NiX]

First of all, let me say that I am a genuine AC nut. I absolutely love AC. But with that said, let me say that I am very unhappy with LR.

As some of you may already know, I am relatively new to the world of LR although I did play Nexus and everything that came before it.

Let's analyze the good things that came about with the Nexus series:
(everything to follow is based only on my)

- Actual variety in boosters, generators, and radiators...
- Accurate EOs
- Hanger concept
- A lot more parts
- SUPPOSED part balancing
- Tuning
- More part stats to add depth
- New Analog Control Scheme

The bad things (based on what I've seen this first week that I started playing LR, and from problems that have remained since NX):

- In NX, I did see a good variety of Booster/Gen/Rad combos... but in LR, the variety seems a lot less especially since they've toned down heat. Nowadays, ANANDA will be enough for most Booster/Gen combos...
- The supposed part-balancing was totally messed up. Parts that were already good (e.g. UA Core, Lemur2) were buffed even more, while parts that seemed underpowered since Nexus (e.g. Dragon, Hollow) still suck.
- Sure there are now more parts than there ever was in any AC game. However, the number of usable parts this time around is just the same as, or maybe even less than that of older AC games. For example, IMO with arms, there are probably only 4-5 of them that are actually good. For the head, core, and legs (per class), there are probably also only 4 good parts for each... Kasi parang kahit mag try ako gumawa ng bagong AC, I still end up picking most of the same parts from the frame. Hirap gumawa ng variety.
- Even the weapons suffer... a rough average of only 1-2 weapons in each class seems decent. Some weapon classes don't even seem effective in general...
- May bagong hanger feature nga. Puro broken naman yung weapons na pwedeng ilagay...
- A lot more broken parts than any other AC game I can think of (both underpowered and overpowered).
- Weird weapon velocities and dodging/tracking properties (e.g. Caelyn of ACG posted a video he made. In the video, using a GL, he locked onto an opponent that was perfectly still. He shot the GL and though it was locked, the projectile still missed the stationary opponent! wtf)
- Major nerfing of Overboost... I agree that OB needed balancing... but maybe not in the way that they did it.
- And many other apparent problems


Sorry for ranting pero frustrating lang talaga kasi. I remember kasi sa SL, although some parts did stand out, everything else was still relatively usable in some way. Back then, originality could still be rewarding. Eh like Grimoire said, sa LR, originality usually feels like giving away a win. :meh:

Sana PC game nalang ang Armored Core para pwedeng lagyan ng patch updates... para magkaroon naman ng balance. Grr.

AC4 better be good.

P.S. If your opinions are opposed to mine, go ahead and tell me your side. I'll probably appreciate it since I'm kinda desperate for reasons to like Last Raven (other than for the fact that it's the AC game that most Ravens nowadays are playing).


2011 Edit: The game's deficiencies still kinda irk me, but I've learned to love it anyway. It's got its own good points going for it.

[Black Dragon]

I agree on the hanger parts, especially the HPs they're strong enough to decaptate an AC :blink:

[Serene]

Good points actually...
GRB combinations... The ananda is enough for most... Tama...
Just 2 weapons in each class are decent... I don't know really... I use most of them... Kahit yung Right Arm Missile Launcher... Some weapons are crappy though...
Pixie2 has too much spread... Para ka nang may dala na 20 spread shotgun
OB... The only core type I don't use much other than just for show...
Sa ACO... If you see their designs there... You'll see that most parts are overused... And I mean OVER! Halos magkakamukha na nga yung ibang mga AC eh...

Anyways... Customizing An AC depends on the designer if he/she will use other parts than the good ones... And usually, originality really gives a win away...

[Moonlight_Raven]

hmm... I think its up to the pilot IF he will used the same overused parts all over and over again. besides, AC is a game of customization, so meaning to say that you can think of something else rather than thinking "shet, wala ng matino kundi ang (insert part name here)... kaya yun na lang"

o sige, sabihin na alng natin na... "since ok naman ito, ITO nalang lagi ang gagamitin ko". siguro pwede namang isipin na "hmm... kakasawa na ito, try kaya ako ng iba. let's see... ganito ang stats... swap ko ito sa (insert part name here), tapos medyo adjust ko ito..."

yung mga "broken parts" ika nga nila... haayyy, wala na akong magagawa dun. I'll just stay away from them kung feel ko na "ayy, mukhang pangit yung AC ko pag ito ang ginamit ko" or "masyado naman yatang malakas pag naka-equip ito". I can use them if I like, but I consider if 1.) "babagay ba sa "looks" ng AC ko" 2.) "hindi naman magiging "overpowered" ang AC ko pag naka-equip ito" ... kasi nawawala ang skills ko pag feel ko di balanced ang AC ko.

if I equip a "broken" or a "cheesy" part... I'll find a way to balance the AC mech as a whole (ang weird ko noh?). for example, the CR-B83TP boosters, I usually equip this IF my AC is a little bit slow if equipped with other, maybe with some middleweight w/ a poor turning speed or a little bit heavy on the side (para naman hindi maging sitting duck ang AC ko sa laban), pero may weakness yung AC. pero kadalasan, ganito -> "ayy... pwede naman pala ang B02-VULTURE para dito, bakit ko pa kailangan i-equip itong CR-B83TP o itong B03-VULTURE2?, ok naman ang performance kahit ito lang ang naka-equip."

wish ko lang sa AC4... sana naman, maging balance na ang mga parts para wala ng part bans, special bans, arena bans at kung anu-ano pang bans... kasi kalimitan, bans decrease customizability, which decrease fun. parang ganito -> "sana gamit ko yung part na yun kasi maporma siya para sa AC ko, kaso kasama yun sa ban list"

I wish for appropriate stats... and I hope AC4 will have that...

no flaming


=^.^=

[NiX]

<!--QuoteBegin-Moonlight_Raven+Sep 28 2006, 12:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Moonlight_Raven @ Sep 28 2006, 12:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hmm... I think its up to the pilot IF he will used the same overused parts all over and over again. besides, AC is a game of customization, so meaning to say that you can think of something else rather than thinking "shet, wala ng matino kundi ang (insert part name here)... kaya yun na lang"

o sige, sabihin na alng natin na... "since ok naman ito, ITO nalang lagi ang gagamitin ko". siguro pwede namang isipin na "hmm... kakasawa na ito, try kaya ako ng iba. let's see... ganito ang stats... swap ko ito sa (insert part name here), tapos medyo adjust ko ito..." [/quote:f69de4fd44]
Well yes, trying to make a unique mech is the whole point of AC.

If you're merely playing for fun and designing ACs for looks or for leisure, then yes, mentality such as "gamit naman ako ng iba kasi sawa na ako doon sa dati" is definitely ok. However, on a competitive level, that won't do.

Like I said, the thing with LR is that even if you try looking for other parts to use, AC designs tend to go in the same direction no matter what. For all the parts that are available, only so few are even worth trying out.

Sure a pilot can be stubborn and use low-tier parts. However, in a tournament setting, doing so doesn't get you anywhere. In the event that someone using low-tier parts wins a tournament, that most probably only means that that person's skills far surpassed the skills of other participants. But let's say that all the participants were of equal skill, ACs using low-tier parts would have been raped.

Of course we all long for an AC game that will feature parts that respectively have good points as well as bad points. In that way, each part will have a reason to be used or not used. That will be a balanced game. But unless AC can feature a patch-updating system, total balance is unlikely to ever be achieved.

[Serene]

In my belief...
All AC parts are good and usable, All you need is the right combination for those parts, para gumana ng maayos yung design.

[NiX]

<!--QuoteBegin-Serene+Sep 28 2006, 06:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serene @ Sep 28 2006, 06:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In my belief...
All AC parts are good and usable, All you need is the right combination for those parts, para gumana ng maayos yung design. [/quote:373867c1bc]

Serene, I really want to share your belief. However, where's the proof?

In the ideal world, having a completely balanced game may be true. It's like saying that everyone in the world is good. Unfortunately, I don't see things that way. I don't think it's a lack of imagination on the part of designers... It's merely the balancing of the game that's the problem. If it were true that every part is usable, then I'd like to see designs sporting an Ettin and the first radiator winning our upcoming tournament, or any tournament for that matter. All these are only opinions of mine, of course; Opinions that would actually make me happy if they were disproved.

[Serene]

I'll show you an AC in the tourney... Or at least, wait a while till I post it here...
It's an AC based on part combinations...

[NiX]

Of course all ACs are made from part combinations. But the thing is, there is such a small percent of the total parts that can actually contribute to winning combinations. Anyways, I'm looking forward to that AC.

[Moonlight_Raven]

one story...

one day, it happened that one raven just thought to design a new unit... after hours of designing and testing, he finally finished the job

"ah... looks cool" (because his design looks great, judging by the physical appearance)

then he invited his fellow raven to have a battle...

the play began... then suddenly, one of his friends noticed that he is using LEMUR2 arms... then began saying "madaya, madaya !!!" (parang si master Pogi ng DBZ)

then, he replied to his friend "kaya ko ginamit ito kc mukhang astig yung bago kong design pag ito ang naka-equip na arms"

sagot naman uli nung nagreklamo "pwede naman ibang arms..."

then he replied again "eh pag ibang arms na yung ilalagay ko, maiiba na yung itsura o looks ng AC ko, papangit na"

pero ang sabi pa rin nung friend na nagrereklamo "madaya ka pa rin... noob"

then, hindi na niya pinansin yung nagrereklamo... then he just thought to himself "alam ko na inappropriate yung stats ng LEMUR2, pero... maganda yun looks niya... haayyy... anong gagawin ko? type ko yung arms na yun, kaso pag ginamit ko yun, kaaway ko naman ang mundo... hindi ko naman ginawa yung bago kong AC para manalo lang, kasi pinagsama ko yung astig na looks at performance. hindi naman ako nag-design ng cheater AC..."

pagkatapos nung meet, napapaisip pa rin siya... :sad:


=^.^=

[Serene]

Hehe... Hindi pa nagyayari sa kin yan...

Here's another one of my -almost senseless- quotes...

A good AC should not be composed of mostly high quality parts...
It must have middle and low quality parts as well , to balance out its attributes...
Because unnoticed by others, these parts have their own -owning- qualities...

Parang ganito yun eh...
LadyB+Selena+Drill+Jackal2
Karasawa+SP
Large Miss+Large Miss
Fudoh+Furuna+Gull

Against a Standard AC with Tunes and OP's...

Sino Panalo? No Part Ejection Match...

:Additional:
OK... Here's the AC I promised...

<a href='http://ravenrepublic.net/index.php?showtopic=217' target='_blank'>http://ravenrepublic.net/index.php?showtopic=217</a>

It has balanced defense stats, is pretty mobile for it's defense....
A design like this is not rare, but rather sometimes disposed of because they're hard to use...

The Shields are there to balance it's defense, but the Turbot side shields are the parts I consider as fixed, which means the Suiten is can be switched with any other part...

Usage...
Choose between two functions:
Heat Disperse ~ RL+Turbot...
or...
Assualt ~ RL+Selena EO's...
This AC is good to use against bladers...

[Grim]

I've been thinking about this since I've been playing around with the AI for the upcoming tourney :tongue:. I guess the main thing I have in mind right now is that this limited part selection and useability in LR could actually be turned around and used to your advantage. Yes, the wonky part balance is there, but even with tunes you can't change much of that, because the game is still heavily tiered in nature. Tunes don't normally allow parts to ascend or drop one tier above or below them suddenly. So, what do you do? The idea I had in mind was the concept of limiting.

A thread on ACO gave me the idea. If you play with crappy parts, you're placing yourself in a handicap. Like for example, going up against an AC with an RL and running on FA legs with just an L74M's placing your stability thousands of points below the other guy. Naturally, once you get hit, it's going to be the beginning of the end of the match for you, especially in this particular game, where stun's made a big comeback and stability is one of the prime factors to consider (just in the same way that cooling was the big thing in Nexus).

But I believe there comes a point when even with low tier or mid tier parts you can begin to beat high end designs... it all actually comes down to your skills first, and the part synergy between those parts you equipped second. That point's different for everyone, for me it was like only after NB that I got to that point, by relentlessly trying to pound the bulldog/pitbull AI into oblivion :tongue:. Some people could attain it only be playing with other people, and not the AI: that's well and good also, since they're getting trained in real combat situations, devoid of any Pluses (on a side note, I find that some people are generally better at playing AC with other people from the get-go, but these same people get pwned by the AI; while on the other hand there are people who pwn the AI but have no clue as to what to do with real human players). By severely crippling your designs, you're forcing your skills to work overtime. Things like mobility, use of cover, use of acceleration/OB, heat management, energy management, judgment and patience with weapons, and most importantly instincts start to get shaped and developed because there's not much on your AC that will buff or make these tasks easier. It's left up to you, in other words. I realize there are some matchups where it is just impossible to win though, where even skill can only take one so far. Figuring out what these are needs an intricate knowledge of the part tiers in LR, of which admittedly I only have a vague but working idea of.

That's basically what I think handicapping yourself does, it enables your piloting skills to increase in depth and breadth, whereas using top tier parts all the time only limits them and keeps them stale. Skill in designing is easier to develop, it comes over time and can be done with enough reading of the proper material. Skill in piloting is harder, it's only developed through practice and more practice, and it's what really matters in crunchtime.

Considering all that, no wonder people who were the shiznit with Nexus are so good with LR. It's the same principle: they were exposed to the extremes, shall we say, of heat mechanics. They had to find a way around it, yes with the proper setup, but also with skill in managing their temperature when boosting. Now in LR, where heat's been toned down, they're like hounds that have been set loose, running and winning all over the place. :bigsmile:

Just another side of the coin.

[Serene]

I'm not one of those -Holy S*** It's Jaeshi!- kind of pilots...
I'm one of those who gets owned by both AI and Human Opponents...
The only thing that's kepping me going is my love of designing where piloting comes second...
Hell~ I even decided to study more about the 3rdGen AC Games by the time I get either a PS2 or my own PC with a PS2 emulator...
And be an 90% designer where piloting only matters when debugging designs...
Still, having good piloting skills is great for collecting parts for designs...
But again, I can ask someone who is having a hard time designing do this for me...
Unfortunately, it's hard to find someone like that who doesn't know how to design properly, I mean someone who has an 90% pilot rating...

Others may find this stupid and childish, but, I'm looking for people who can use my designs, at specially the completed versions of my EA Series...
But they're hard to find... Because like I've said... It's hard to find AC players with a 90% Pilot Rating...
It's either you train someone from scratch or look for that person yourself...
Darn... Life's unfair...

[Grim]

<!--QuoteBegin-Serene+Oct 18 2006, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Serene @ Oct 18 2006, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->90% pilot rating...[/quote:b23ec8e002]
Dude, what's a pilot rating? Do you get it out of a formula or something, or is it something more of a subjective thing for ya?

[NiX]

I mean no offense to anyone, but I truly believe that to be a complete AC player, you have to have skill in both designing and piloting. If one can't properly pilot an AC, how can they ever know the full potential of the AC they made? If they can never know its full potential, how can they see its flaws in order to improve it? There's more to it than what's on paper.