The Raven Republic Forums

see below for finished post

The MOLD as a light SHADOW is interesting, though it may be redundant if compared to the original SHADOW, but I'll withhold what else is on my mind till I see the complete picture of your idea.

Is it possible to remove some stats or add some for guns? Those burst rifles really need some love. Just add a mag cap of 3 and a reload rate of around 50-60, and you're all set.

I believe there should be at least a grand scheme to how balance can be achieved in the game. We could balance the game under the following principles (Not limited to the following btw):

-Make weaker parts better, benchmarking effectiveness on the current top-tier useable parts. You still retain the core gameplay and just make it more balanced essentially.
-Complete overhaul of the game, that is to change completely how people will design and play the game. This involves completely reworking entire weapons classes to fit into a particular framework of ideas.

We don't have the resources and the data and the means to determine true statistical balance. So that actually just leaves us with tweaking the weaker parts so that they actually become viable, as well as toning down the ones that are glaringly better than the rest. We just need to achieve a perception of it being balanced. Simplest way of doing it.

IMPROVE GAST PLZZZ!

That's still quite a lot to work with. Considering things,you've only got a hand full of parts per category that are perceived as useable and a LOT of perceived less useable parts. This is especially prevalent in back mount weapons, particularly missiles.

The current system as I perceive it is that some parts are basically just a better version of an original with an added drawback. The new one I wanted to hopefully implement is to have each part have a role to play in an overall design scheme.

I can't explain in detail right now, but once we've got a solid and working way to really modify ACLR stats in our hands, I can prolly give an idea on what I have on my mind.

(04-29-2011, 06:00 AM)Lord_Leperman Wrote: [ -> ]-Make weaker parts better, benchmarking effectiveness on the current top-tier useable parts. You still retain the core gameplay and just make it more balanced essentially.

this is what first suggest we should do (since it is the easiest), but what are the parts are we going to benchmark?

im sure we wont base all of our laser rifles to "shade"

i decided to finish it up here

here are some calculations/ideas, and btw, if you don't see a stat, that means it hasn't changed:

MOLD - no longer an AST, but a light version of the SHADOW (in all honesty, that's what the makers initially intended). it's weight will be the same, the precision will get a bit better, ammo the same, but ATK will go up like the SHADOW at 305 (i dont like 303 ATK). it will have the highest range of all rifles. it will probably stand as Mirage's most accurate rifle.

weight: 440
lock: SP
ATK: 305
ammo: 120
range: 520
firing int.: 30
damage/frame: 9.8387
damage pot.: 36,600

RA - since i'm OCD, and you know this since i changed SHADOW's ATK by 2 just for the heck of it, i cant see this thing being lighter than RA2, and i have no use for a rifle this heavy. so i thought to transpose the current RA2 over this:

weight: 530
ATK: 245
ammo: 180
range: 420
firing int.: 19
mag cap.: 15
mag reload: 120
damage/frame: 9.1646 (better than the current RA2)
damage pot.: 44,100

RA2 - ok, so since i copied this thing's original over RA, i decided to come up with a new AST. the idea for this thing came from a hybrid of ACFA's AR-O700 (so friggin cool looking) and MARVE qualities. high DPS (not the highest though, that goes to SHADOW and R3), somewhat light, good rof and ATK, but somewhat low on the ammo and damage potential ends of the equation. it's precision (and as a result, its accuracy) is slightly better than the other AST, save HITEN, so as to compensate somewhat for its ammo count.

weight: 425
ATK: 260
heat: 1755
ammo: 120
range: 395
firing int.: 17
mag cap.: 12
mag reload: 100
damage/frame: 10.4348
damage pot.: 31,200


GAST - basically, since this was the AST that was a two hander, i decided that it should be balanced in as many ways as possible. since i stole the 260 ATK for the new RA2 in order to achieve the DPS i needed, i thought of a way to reconcile both GAST's DPS and fixing it so that it had complete mag sets (150 ammo does NOT divide into 16 evenly!). yeah, and it has a standard window now too...this thing would actually be very good in the current meta - enough to make people that use RA2 think twice about their AST choice

weight: 446
ATK: 250
ammo: 160
range: 410
lock: standard
firing int.: 19
mag cap.: 16
mag reload: 108
damage/frame: 9.7799
damage pot.: 40,000

HITEN - the thought behind this one was similar to what FROM had envisioned: an AST that was designed almost purely for accuracy. HITEN currently has better precision AND velocity than all other rifles - AST and normal! it will remain this way, but the DPS will be improved a bit, and the weight reduced to make it more playable

weight: 470
ATK: 225
ammo: 130
range: 445
firing int.: 20
mag cap.: 10
mag reload: 70
damage/frame: 8.6538
damage pot.: 29,250

SPECTER - alright, this thing looks like a Crest rifle to me...and i'll describe it as such. this thing currently sucks - flat out sucks. as small as this thing is, it should be an ultra-light rifle. and of course, with the stat changes, i needed something to make it worthwhile, so i made it a hot rifle too...the accuracy on this thing is similar to normal Crest rifles.

CR-WL06R
compact model using a new, high-heat round. based on the CR-YWH05R3.

weight: 377
ATK: 270
ammo: 100 (can't change this in the coding, so it'll stay at 100)
heat: 2611
range: 430
firing int.: 25 or 26 (i'm thinking 26, but this may not be all that great; i'll be testing this baby out in my next hack)
damage/frame: 10.3846 or 10.0000
damage pot.: 27,000

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i feel i have to do some explanations here. from my experience overhauling other games, i can say this:

if you do too little...
-it wont affect gameplay practically at all, tiers will still remain the same
-you won't spark any new interest to play again

if you do too much...
-you'll find yourself re-balancing your re-balance! basically, it becomes hard to predict the shifts in power if you're not careful
-it becomes quite a time consumer

the things that need to be done

-there are many ways to skin a cat. by this i mean the best way to balance something isn't always balancing it directly, but indirectly (i.e. if you wanted everyone to have an extra optional, reduce the slot cost of the AMINO by 1 as EVERYONE uses it!)

-each part niche needs to be rewarding. hovers are not rewarding, that's why no one plays them seriously. this not only applies to frame parts, now. shotguns, for example, need to be awesome in their intended combat scenario, that is. FROM understood this, that's why bideps couldn't use cannons in LR. but we've seen in ACFA that this can be achieved without restricting them completely. the cannons available to bipeds would have to be noticeably inferior to restricted ones, like low damage potential, high drain, inefficiency (En weapons, like 6800 drain for a 1800 ATK shot), etc.

-parts that cross over into another part category's niche need to be carefully regulated. if you don't know what i mean, think of what DINGO/-2 and COUGAR2 midweight legs do to the competitive viability of lightweight designs. it truly is sad when you come up with a great LW design and find out that it would be better in the vast majority of ways simply by replacing whatever LW leg with DINGO2/COUGAR2...

-restricting tournament viable stages should be kept to a minimum. i remember seeing some list of restricted stages at ACO, and most of them were explained as being "too small," while non of them were restricted for being "too big." it appears that whoever came up with these intentionally/unintentionally engineered a meta that punishes CQC. it's hard enough to get in there to do damage with a rusher, but having a stage with too much room makes it really tough...for example, aqua hole was restricted and i have no clue why, as i think this stage is perfectly balanced in size (not necessarily geography, though...)

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well, i guess i'll put some more ideas up another time

(04-29-2011, 02:02 PM)adiyel Wrote: [ -> ]-parts that cross over into another part category's niche need to be carefully regulated. if you don't know what i mean, think of what DINGO/-2 and COUGAR2 midweight legs do to the competitive viability of lightweight designs. it truly is sad when you come up with a great LW design and find out that it would be better in the vast majority of ways simply by replacing whatever LW leg with DINGO2/COUGAR2...

well dingo2 is just a bad mistake made by from, a nerf to those legs are ensured

im just curious on these changes as they will literary change the metagame(i dont like major changes), but if most of the top tier and viable parts stay intact then it will be fine for me since i abuse them.

(04-30-2011, 02:35 AM)atdsutm Wrote: [ -> ]well dingo2 is just a bad mistake made by from, a nerf to those legs are ensured

im just curious on these changes as they will literary change the metagame(i dont like major changes), but if most of the top tier and viable parts stay intact then it will be fine for me since i abuse them.

that's the point. if you don't, most people's competitive designs will remain practically the same.

next post, i wanna give you an example of how you can balance a part without making it just another copy of existing parts OR making it complete trash. next post's target part: LORIS

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST! i'll try not to let it happen again...

alright, first i want to say that most of the really good parts will have nothing done to them, and if they do, it'll be minor, like SHADE's ammo being dropped to 65 or 68, and WR93RL's ATK being dropped to 590, but it's precision increasing*

alright, so i'll get started on my suggested changes for LORIS. ok so the goal is to make it part of the playable pool, so the first thing i want to do is show you all my thought train when it comes to doing this sorta thing...

what's the essential nature of the LORIS?
>arm part with exceptionally high DEF to weight ratios and godly precision

how does the part fit into the arm-pool "esthetically?" also, what does it look like it's properties would be in real life?
>well, it looks like it would be able to track target easily as all the external armor on the lower arm is gone (high aiming accuracy). the thin and small areas would dissipate heat quickly (good cooling), and it'd be hard to really dig into with solid rounds and its thin-ness would allow only fractions of a beam to conect with it (high DEF), but its small size would mean it couldn't take many hits (low AP) or recoil (bad aim adjust time).

here are the stats i've come up with:

YA10-LORIS
arm part featuring exceptional accuracy and DEF scores at the cost of stability.

AP: 1325
Weight: 1089
Drain: 1355
Def S: 405
Def E: 444
Cooling: 788
Blade apt.: 133
Aim acc.: 293
Aim adj.: 23

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now, low AP is not good, but its DEF does begin to make up for it, IF your other frame parts have enough AP to compensate for the LORIS' low AP stat. meaning, the part wont fit too well on a lightweight (for other reasons as well, as you'll see later).

as for the bad aim adjust time, i hope everyone reading can see already how this would adversely affect the arms. this means that MG's are out of the question, AST rifles are not a good idea, and neither are handguns. a 50% hit-rate HP would start to stray to the point where you get hit ratios in the 30-ish range!

so what does the new LORIS not work with?

-lights: they don't usually have enough AP to make it's DEF worth it. also, the low weight cap of LW force them to use high damage potential weapons (like AST's and MG's!), and also try to pack hangar pistols (also a no-no). it's also a bit drainy for most lights...

-hangar weapons: as most are pistols and would stray all over the place. even a pocket PERYTON wouldn't be all that great!

what does the new LORIS work really well with?

-RJ's: they usually have very high AP for their weight, and they're energy efficient enough to offset the drain of the LORIS easily. also they tend to lack En DEF and cooling, both of which the new LORIS has plenty of. also, the high accuracy works wonders with someone launching aerial raids. also since my hack includes some cannons, they can equip a back gun to offset bad hangar options since they also tend to have high loads.

-Heavies: they have AP out the wazoo, and LORIS defense scores and low weight really help them stay faster and harder to kill. also, the aim adjust time doesn't affect the heavier weapons they tend to use like laser rifles, bazookas, sniper rifles, grenades, etc.

-Tanks: most of the same reasons for heavies, except they practically always equip OB - the the EOS specifically, which doesn't have hangars! this will let them use their arm weapons that more effectively.

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keep in mind, i'll be doing a bit of this for three more arms specifically: LEMUR, LEMUR2, and MACAQUE.

i appreciate all constructive criticism, so comments on this are more than welcome! until next time!

*WR93RL actually has higher velocity and projectile hit detection than SHADE, but its relatively poor precision forces you to use it closer to opponents; the decrease in ATK, and also in stun, are done in order to make sure i don't create a solid round SHADE with higher accuracy and stun capability!

Double post all you want as long as it's good info.

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I don't think RL needs any adjusting though. Making it more accurate might make it somewhat overlap with some of the other sniper rifles... and the RL isn't meant to be a sniper. Shade definitely needs an ammo nerf. 65-70 rounds sounds reasonable.

hmm..most I agree with, but prolly not for the rl nerf. The gun is pretty okay okay on it's own already(pretty drainy, and pretty heavy). nerfing the damage stat will make it closer to it's nx counterpart, which sucks balls. Nerfing the stun is fine though, as one never uses it to stun an opponent anyway. A stun nerf is fine, but damage, no(as it doesn't have the luxury of being an energy weapon in itself). if it has to be really nerfed, from 672>>to 650/640/630 should be great since itll get more accurate.

actually changes to RL wouldn't be a nerf overall as the accuracy change will more than make up for the loss in ATK, but i see what you two mean, no need to make it an RS dupe since the LGL wont get the same treatment...

what are people's thoughts on SLAC-era LGL for ACLR bipeds? of course with a slight ATK heat drop (comparatively speaking), reload speed-up, and huge ammo cut? something kinda like this:

weight: 450
ATK: 887
ammo: 32
heat: 8550
range: 620
lock: special
firing int.: 90

EDIT:
don't worry too much about the idea of a fast AC packing 2 LGL's, dual rifles, and dual hangared WH69H, since the changes i'm making happen will compensate for newly allowed parts. i'll more thoroughly explain this later, but rest assured there won't be any back cannon abuse going on.

isnt having back cannon for bipeds will give them too much ammo?

that concept is just too much ammo given for bipeds.

and also consequently will just almost kill quads

Special locktype for a backcannon? O_O Should be ND, if at all. I'd honestly rather not have backcannons for bipeds. Maybe if equipping it dropped their stability to nothing, or something like that.