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+---- Thread: Delta Mk.II (/showthread.php?tid=484)
- AEA1 - 12-25-2006
Harder, better, faster, stronger?
from what I see, all you did was to weigh your rusher down. And added a "new" herding strategy... (In which a radar would be helpful)
more like... slower, weighted down and blinded.
looks like the guys pretty much said everything as feedback
low defense- 1500 ish
dragon is too weak for a rushing design
dingo2- breaks often
energy issues.
OC not much good against non tanks and heavies
Leper's diagram is a pretty accurate description of how a Player reacts to your Yasya tactic.
If you plan to rush at a range of 110 and less, I seriously suggest to beef up your defense.
yes, moving away from a stationary weapon is a natural reaction. You can't blame people from doing that and then quit your game afterwards.
If I move away from your Yasya, would you call me a back peddler?
- Dacapn - 12-25-2006
LMAO i just checked out that championship vid and dude...if that's the best ya'll hafta offer...damn...i'm sorry lol.
Not even kidding...some of the average players around here could run circles around that "champion."
The playstyle I saw is basically AI that constantly jukes. That's like the first style everyone here masters how to play lolz. Not impressed at all.
All I gotta say is broaden your horizen folks. As much as ya'll may hate kai, it's allowed folks like me to play against many many many peaple and play styles. I've played against the number 1 japanese player, naitoh, other japanese players, tons of korean players, and of course americans...and i can say easily that i would have a harder time winning against igauna than those dudes in the vid.
Back to topic tho, The AC is good, but the pilot makes it work. Probably wouldn't fair well in a tourney against an RS griffon ac but ya...Igauna pilot skills>that dude's pilot skills
P.S Crimson...I thought you were someone else(too many damn crimsons in this world i guess)
Ya'll should play our average joe over here. He'd be a superstar to you guys lol.
- Iguana - 12-25-2006
"Harder, better, faster, stronger" is the name of a song done by a band called Daft Punk, the song was about improvement. "Technologic" was another good one, weird video though.
Yes, the YASYA does indeed weigh quite a bit, but it's well-worth it given that Delta Mk.II's speed is still great stuff with and without it. The lack of radar does indeed suck on occasions, but that's where using the YASYA's OCs for battefield control comes-in so radar isn't nearly as much of a neccessity as it previously had been.
The defense is 1500+, and that's just fine given how much damage and speed Delta Mk.II has to begin with.
DRAGON = Long-lasting duration, excellent complimentary weapon.
DINGO2 = Delta Mk.II attacks almost exclusively from the ground. It takes practice, however the legs don't break until the very end now.
By -no means- does Delta Mk.II have energy issues. It doesn't take much energy to deploy a YASYA, fire the DRAGON, or keep the URANUS going. Keep track of your En Gague and you'll be fine. I've listed two ways to restore EN quickly at any given time. An EN Supply of 3,000 is boarderline acceptable on LOTUS. 3,500 is great. 3,800+ is more than enough to run the energy weapons
I was playing against an OB lightwieght biped and quad for 20 straight rounds last night (Dacapn). It had great results given that it was the first time I had actually used it against a human opponent, and even though my opponent was an experienced user of OB, he still felt the pressure. Lots of it.
Leperman's diagram didn't mention that I'm blasting the stuffing out of my target as they try to get away from the OC, which allows me time to set-up another one, restricting their movement even more so. Delta Mk.II has more than enough energy to be doing that multiple times.
I've been chasing backpedalers with Delta and Delta Mk.II since I made them. They're both extremely effective at a 110m distance, because there aren't many AC design that have as much damage output as either one of them. I assure you that nearly every single opponent focuses more on NOT being in the way of the tri-blast (which is why I named it Delta) than to try and outdo the URANUS + PIXIE3 + DRAGON in a damage race. You're crazy to try that without any room.
I don't care if people move away form the OCs, I would to. (But I'm nuts and would actually rather boost into them to take em' out, lol) It's when people just move backwards all day and never charge in, or they play the waiting game using OB-Jousting when I get close. Seriously, there is -NO- fun when there is no pressure. Dacapn ran from Delta Mk.II for 60% of the time, but he utilized the OB, maneuvered alot, made do against the OCs and got in there more often than not to keep the match alive.
If he didn't I wouldn't have played em', lol.
If you moved away from YASYA, you're right where I want you. In a semi-predictable route to get away from what you feel is pressuring you. That's why it's called 'battefield control', because you go where I want you to be. If you just back-up all day and never really engage me at all, but rather wait for me to come to you, I wouldn't even play you because there's no action.
Sportsmanship plays a large part in having fun with AC for me. If every single player 'played it smart', there would only be a few select AC designs for doing so and no intense action at all. Take the quad video from the link I watched for example. If everyone played like that, I would be more entertained by the cooking channel than move sideways all day while shooting across a football field hoping to hit my target.
Bring-on more views!
- Grim - 12-25-2006
<!--QuoteBegin-Iguana+Dec 25 2006, 07:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Iguana @ Dec 25 2006, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The video quality was weird, but that match looked to be to much of what people on Kai dislike on so many levels: 100% mid-range spam.
Blind-firing the grenade launcher and hoping the second round hits when the thing locks-on during the proccess, and the LADON + OB / DFA is an old one to. The ranges those two were doing it at was waaaay to far away. There was no intensity in those videos, just a constant game of keep-away quad juking. [/quote:82bb777d8a]
Like I said, what you view as boring and uninteresting in a fight, we don't. Let's just agree to disagree.
<!--QuoteBegin-Iguana+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Iguana)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not to say they suck, but those two have massive space issues, no wonder RR detests closed arenas so much, it's way out of players like Leperman's comfort zone. I'd like to play one of you over there sometime, but I have this nagging feeling that most of you would just backpedal all day long.[/quote:82bb777d8a]
I don't get that feeling. What I think would happen most probably is that we'd fly up, and stay with the match. You say attacking this AC with DFA is encouraged but I can't really understand why.
And besides, you say we should all be aggressive in our tactics and never backpedal, lest we be deemed as noobs. Well guess what? You're inviting us to play into your comfort zone. It works both ways.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dacapn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dacapn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ya'll should play our average joe over here. He'd be a superstar to you guys lol.[/quote:82bb777d8a]
No.
<!--QuoteBegin-Iguana+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Iguana)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sportsmanship plays a large part in having fun with AC for me. If every single player 'played it smart', there would only be a few select AC designs for doing so and no intense action at all. Take the quad video from the link I watched for example. If everyone played like that, I would be more entertained by the cooking channel than move sideways all day while shooting across a football field hoping to hit my target.[/quote:82bb777d8a]
What? I thought AC was about having a strategy and playing it smart. Blame the little design variety on the game, not on the gamer, because the gamer plays to win.
<!--QuoteBegin-Iguana+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Iguana)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bring-on more views!
[/quote:82bb777d8a]It seems that bringing on more views only contributes to further disrespect in the posts. We say something, you say something back to defend it, but mostly you won't believe a word of what we've said, because you have it in your mind that it works already, despite admitting that the method hasn't worked for more than 40% in a match.
So what else is there to say?
- Lord_Leperman - 12-25-2006
<!--QuoteBegin-Dacapn+Dec 25 2006, 08:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dacapn @ Dec 25 2006, 08:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->POST[/quote:b202bd16a3]
no
For one thing, quit being an ass and be nice for a change.
Its a shame though for something like this to come out during this holiday season. :/
- wanzerfreak - 12-25-2006
see what i mean? altair was right about a few kai-bound people.
- Dacapn - 12-25-2006
I'm not bein' nice...i'm bein' blunt.
-That ac fight was pathetic...like watching 2 AI duke it out. Very noobish. But I guess I'll just be nice and lie. THAT FIGHT WAS GREAT!!! THOSE DUDES ARE PROS
-A player who has had equal human vs experience compared with someone with equal AI experience: I will put money the human exp guy will win. Playin' the AI over and over WILL NOT make you a better player. AI will not dodge a single bullet and will not deviate from their tactic even if it results and a humilating loss. AI doesn't use cover. AI follows one track. Pretty much it is like playing duck hunt where the ducks always move from left to right in a straight line.
-No offense to those who cannot have human experience but your skills are stunted simply because of he lack of thought required. Vs. AI=100% damage race. Not too tough.
-Whether you guys view that fight as amusing or ridiculous...i don't care. The fact remains that it was 2 players that simply aren't as good as other players I have played. And yes I would go as far as to say that I myself could beat either one of them with my non-competitive acs.
-And your beef with kai is dumb. It's like a Halo player hating Xbox Live.
-So since i prefer action over idle talk, i'm challengin' any one of you dudes. And yes I will win. State the bans and I will win. Nuff talk. Gonna hafta be kai tho cuz i'm not travelin' to where ya live lolz.
- maitreya - 12-25-2006
With all due respect guys, take it easy. This is a design forum, not a challenge forum. At the rate this is going, this is beginning to sound like a flame.
Sure, we go OT every once in a while in the design thread, but it's for the good of the design itself.
Please, if you have some quarrels, take it to the PMs.
Lastly, the Republic is supposed to be a friendly place. And above all, we're supposed to have respect for one another. We can't be like everyone else, and we must respect our differences.
Happy Holidays.
- wanzerfreak - 12-25-2006
1. there's a fine line between being blunt and being a dick. you, sir, are being a dick.
2. oh, my beef with kai is spot on, amigo, and you're a primary example.
3. you might be right about v.s. inexperience, but then again, what if the human opposition was just as bad?
4. "Whether you guys view that fight as amusing or ridiculous...i don't care. The <B>fact</B> remains that it was 2 players that simply aren't as good as other players I have played." <---Opinion. the only fact here is that you have been some people.
btw, check this out: <a href='http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34757' target='_blank'>http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34757</a>
street fighter or ac, the message is pretty universal. tourneys vids are boring to watch to the average player because everyone else tries to narrow down their gameplan to that which has less risk and high reward. hence you having people rocking out top-tier stuff and play safe. and then we have scrubs like you.
5. "So since i prefer action over idle talk, i'm challengin' any one of you dudes. And yes I will win. State the bans and I will win. Nuff talk. Gonna hafta be kai tho cuz i'm not travelin' to where ya live lolz."
-well, if i had the resources, i would. and the only thing i would lose is the match. your loss, on the other hand, is gonna be an embarrasment among your peers since you were oh so humble as to tell us that we aren't as good as your usual opposition, only to be beaten by some unknown guy.
anyway, that's enough from me.
- AEA1 - 12-25-2006
there's always one in every board... in this case two.
DECAPN
I'm telling you again. play nice... this isn't the place for taunts and trash talk. If you continue on your behavior, I honestly believe you don't belong here.
If you're looking for a flame war, please look somewhere else and leave this board clean.
IGUANA
the people here already gave their views on your design. If you choose to comply or not it's really up to you. There has already been an exchange of views based on the design. You already heard our views.
ADMIN
I move a warning be given to Decapn.
- Lord_Leperman - 12-25-2006
Don't misunderstand, we're not hating Kai, its a good thing as it keeps AC players in touch with others. What I hate are the people like you who have their ignorant heads up their asses because they think that when they have Kai they have the right to look down at others.
But since none of us here have the means to go on Kai, nor are you willing to go here, I say we just stop this right here and now.
- Grim - 12-25-2006
No warning needed Adrian. I think he'll leave soon enough.
Dacapn, as far as I'm concerned, you never came here to contribute to any other topic but this one. And the way you try to impose your way of playing on us is proving that to me. If an AC is good it will not need support from any other player backing it up other than the player who created it, in order to make others see its worth.
- Dacapn - 12-25-2006
Oh no. I am stating fact. Here's why i'm goin' off you.
1. Most of the complaints about this ac pertain to the fact that the skill requirement to use such an ac is higher than the skill level of some of the people here. Example: Ettin is a badass weapon. No one uses it becuz it would be easier to slap on RS or minisawa. Ettin takes more skill to use. Same goes for this guy's ac. YOU need to play it to determine it's potential. Everything is not written on paper.
2. I have seen the vid of the two guys you consider pros. Here's the difference. I have also seen vids of two guys the japanese consider as pros. I have also seen vids of the two guys the americans condsider as pro. I have also seen the two guys that the koreans consider as pro. I have played these guys. You guys are seeing one playstyle and seeing it as the pro. I have seen four. And what I can determine by sheer observation is those two guys in your vids are not on par with the other three. Show a child a grape and 3 oranges. Ask em which is bigger.
2. Kai. One of three ways to play people from all over the world. The second being the Japanese program Himachi(something like that) and the other being traveling from country to country playing people in AC(gay). As much as you folks may hate it, there are things in AC you can only learn by playing humans, and not only that, but playing humans from all over the world. It is for this reason that the Japanese players and Americans are among the best in AC worldwide(ask naitoh...he is close contact with fromsoftware). Until you realize this, this convo is goin' nowhere. You can play all the ac games AC1-LR and still suck at ac.
3. There is talk. And there is show. I challenged you becuz I have heard your talk and I have seen your show. Not very threatening. Instead I will break it down for you. The guy in the vid would be quite simple to take down.
-His lock box control was piss poor. Because of his aim, an OB ac could easily flank him and combined with a slide jump he wouldn't be able to track. I think this is clear from is difficulty tracking an AC as slow as the other dudes with a standard core.
-The japanese players, if you may not know, are reknown for their ridiculous aim ability. Just search youtube for the parry dude, and i think you'll see what i mean. Dancing on top of his ac would be no problem.
4. Basically combined with the fact that probably none of you have played this ac your opinions are quite skewed. The main difference between what I've seen on this forum and other forums is how you rate acs. you guys seem to rate them by how well you use them. In other forums, we test them against ourselves(aka we fight the ac as opposed to using them) via kai fantasy tourneys in which you submit your ac to fight other acs. Thus the test is valid. Judging an ac by how well you can pilot it reflects your skill more than the ac. Fighting the AC reflects about 50 50.
I have not imposed any type of playstyle becuase if i'm correct Grimlok, you don't know how I play, nor did I mention how I play.
Damn that was long, but long story short put up or shut up.
- Iguana - 12-25-2006
*Sigh* It seems people just don't like me at -all- whenever I defend my views.
I don't believe that what Dacapn and myself say about this AC will matter much to the 1-sided views RR seems to be giving Delta Mk.II. The community here doesn't seem to like thinking 'outside of the box', which is another way of saying 'trying something different'.
Dacapn = Very experienced OB user, well-known for tactics and OB control.
Myself = Adept EO / OC user, considered highly unorthodox.
That's the short summary of us both. Call me crazy, but when the first real test-run of Delta Mk.II against an experienced OB opponent works-out just fine for nearly 40% of the time, that is a -very- good result as far as I'm concerned.
Delta Mk.II is a complex AC that can prove difficult to pilot effectively, the tactics are hard to perform and require a great deal of patience, and yet it is still powerful in terms of speed, offense, and has the rare ability to control the battefield by actually rerouting the opponent's movements at any given time.
How many ACs can do that?
I like to defend my views here because I'm well-aware of what Delta Mk.II is capable of when piloted to it's fullest potential, and that isn't something I'm about to give-up because of an army of lemmings that say the YASYA isn't worth the use against all types of opponents.
It's not my fault some of you are minimalists with the same idea of how ACs should be piloted. As to what I have read so far, a whole lot of you don't like risk, intensity, extremely mobile close combat (which Kai is usually about, hence the trademark dislike for mid-range spam battles), or enclosed spaces because I sense that a good deal of you aren't willing to put forth that kind of effort into playing.
I'll have to agree with Dacapn though, there was a major neglect to the overall potential of the ACs I saw used in this videos, along with some clunky juking action that just about anyone can do.
It's odd though. I hear Grimlock say that "we must have different playing styles", and yet I get negative reviews on Delta Mk.II simply beacause it doesn't suit the playing style of other people, instead of looking at it's real potential. Unfortunately that tradition doesn't seem like it's about to be broken, and this makes getting any -useful- review difficult.
Honestly, I don't think anyone here even wants to give Delta Mk.II a serious review at all because it just doesn't suit their playing style. To many cookie-side views that gear an AC towards mid-range spam, no wonder everyone gave the previous model Delta a good grade, because it was mostly spray n' pray.
Where did the positive reviews and suggestions to using the AC go? I really wonder where they went. Probably gone since I'm not agreeing with the older RR members. Oh, the blasphemy!
I really don't like lemmings.
- wanzerfreak - 12-25-2006
you were expecting a good review but you went off like this because you thought everyone would like it. no one here is giving you a bad day. people tried to help you, but you're the one who is making it hard for yourself because you can't handle criticism. it's your fault, not ours.